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Sainsbury's in Todmorden

From John Billingsley

Monday, 8 August 2011

I've just noted that Calderdale's head of planning Geoff Willerton has recommended for approval the plan for a major Sainsbury's supermarket at Hope St. (Yorkshire Post)

Asda/Netto are already earmarked for a slice of the Tod shopping market, and this may well impact even further. Shouldn't Hebden Bridge people also be getting aerated about this, as it will as siphon people out of Hebden Bridge shopping

From Jason Elliott

Monday, 8 August 2011

I'm not sure I understand the logic of recommending approval for this if Asda/Netto have already got theirs. Its not like Tod has a population of 25,000 or anything...

A marina on the site would be pretty cool however, and would bring money into the area rather than take it out.


From Ian M

Monday, 8 August 2011

Apparently the head of planning was given expert advice that a new supermarket would have a damaging effect on local shops but under planning guide lines this its not a reason to reject an application! In a nutshell, devastating a local economy isn't a reason for it not to go ahead, never mind the fact that no one wants the damn thing!

From Joel B

Tuesday, 9 August 2011

Sainsbury's are more than welcome to build on the old Browns site in Hebden !!

From Ian M

Tuesday, 9 August 2011

News just in from a friend at the planning meeting. Sainsburys planning application refused by the Council.

Bloody Brilliant news!

From Bill Greenwood

Wednesday, 10 August 2011

I agree Joel, a proper supermarket with none of the 'running out of stock' issues that we experience at the Co-op! And what a great location, just on the outskirts of the town so close enough to menader on for a few bits and bobs, whilst not too far to travel in the car for a full shop.

From Nina Smith

Wednesday, 10 August 2011

Great news about planning refusal for sainsbury's in Tod. Let's hope that the marina goes ahead - it will be great for our neighbour.

We don't want Sainsbury's on the Brown's site, as it will seriously damage our small shops. If yiu want to go to Sainsbury's then catch the bus to Halifax!

From Micheal Marney

Wednesday, 10 August 2011

I'm glad your happy that Sainsbury's might not have gained planning permission. I hope the people of Todmorden feel the same, now that they have lost £250,000 of enviromental investment, nevermind the jobs lost building and running the shop. Which more than likely would of been welcome by rightminded people of Todmorden.

We are now left with a derelict site, a stagnant economy and an iron grip monopoly by Morrisons for another 5 years. I guess you can chalk this up as a win for ignorance, stupidity and a lack of foresight.

ps Just contacted Sainsburys they say that they are still pursuing a store in Todmorden.


From Jenny B

Wednesday, 10 August 2011

So the people of Hebden rejoice! Or suggest rudely that we'catch a bus to Halifax' if we want a Sainsburys!! How typical of the smug brigade who are happy to eat either expensive organic products from our great little shops, or the rubbish that passes for fresh at the coop.

I have many friends in Todmorden who would welcome a decent store that would offer them jobs for their futures. How many years will it take to get a marina, if ever? The land is old industrial land, that is an eyesore as you enter Todmorden. Look at the old Abraham Ormerod Centre - derelict and tatty as an example. I for one would have welcomed a Sainsburys up the road. Be it built on industrial wasteland in Tod, or on the Browns industrial waste land in Hebden.

From Andrew B

Wednesday, 10 August 2011

Here's to the appeal! Hopefully Sainsbury's will be following local coverage such as Hebweb and may just consider the Browns site - the jobs and competition would be more than welcome by those in HB that feel we need development, jobs, and competition!

From Phil M

Thursday, 11 August 2011

Well done Todmorden for blocking Sainsburys and helping preserve the wonderful Tod market!

Morrisons is plenty enough supermarket for one town, any comments about breaking their 'monopoly' are abit pointless really as their prices are governed and set nationally and not on a local scale.

Bring on the Marina!!

From Ian M

Thursday, 11 August 2011

Why when ever someone speaks up in favour of Sainsburys do they mention the derelict state of the Abraham Ormerod site? It seems to be used as a measure of how much a Sainsbury store would tidy up the other entrance into the town. For everyone's info, Asda has already been given planning permission to build a supermarket on that site. Yes another one!

From Micheal Marney

Thursday, 11 August 2011

Marina? Ha ha ha. This is a joke. Anybody in their right mind can only come to the conclusion that a marina of that size and scale, in Todmorden, in today's financial climate is beyond reason.

There is no company or individual that would invest millions upon millions of pounds in to an old mill town, which has already fallen into dereliction, to fund such a farcical idea like a marina. Especially, when you consider that there is no possible financial return for the investors, ever. It would become a burden to the council taxpayers of Todmorden, just like the existing marina, which has become a mecca for drunks, drug addicts and thugs. Not to mention the marina possibly undermining all the millions of pounds of investment in Todmorden's flood prevention scheme. All in all this is a foolish idea, dreamed up by schemers who hold a vested interest and show no consideration or interest to the wellbeing of the people of Todmorden.

Have these people failed to notice that even the USA has had its credit rating downgraded? This is not the time to be wasting money on such a fallacy. Personally, I am intrigued by who this mysterious investor for a marina could be? A wealthy oil sheik? Donald Trump? Or could it be the Greeks? Since they all have a history of bad investments. Perhaps we will get half way through building it and have to ask the Germans to come and bail us out?

As to Morrisons not holding a monopoly on Todmorden. Can you honestly believe that a single supermarket would not profiteer given such an opportunity? Morrisons has been lucky enough to hold such a large catchment area for such a long time with no competition. Before anyone mentions Lidal I ask you, have you sampled the food? Morrisons has been proven to change its prices depending on locality and competition. Morrisons is the only store, in Todmorden, that has the buying power of a national supermarket.

In conclusion, if Sainsbury's does not get planning permission on Hope Street, then that site will remain derelict and become a bigger problem than an eyesore.

From Joel B

Thursday, 11 August 2011

Re, Nina Smith's comments. I can't understand how a supermarket on the old Brown's site would damage our local shops? Do you buy your groceries from Valet Stores or your freezer food from a gift shop? Spar and Oasis would be unnafected as these are not used for a full shop, mainly just "bits", pint of milk, loaf of bread etc. A newspaper, a bottle of wine, a 4 pack of beers.

Having a supermarket on the Brown's site could prove jobs for local people, the conditions could be that the contruction of the building went to a local construction firm, and that local people were guaranteed an interview to work within the store. Surely this would help the town and not affect tourism.

We talk about more traffic on the road but surely an infrastructure could be put in place to allow for this. The other day, there was a Sainsburys van, a Tesco's van and an Asda van all delivering on my street at the same time which seems ridiculous when we could have a supermarket on our doorstep that always stocks everyday food at affordable prices.


From Heather Morgan

Thursday, 11 August 2011

I agree with Joel B what impact would a supermarket have on the old Browns site, surely it would be a greener alternative to people driving to another town to do a supermarket shop, if any readers of this forum don't think people from Hebden Bridge do they live in a different town to the one I and my friends do!

I personally would prefer a Booths as Andrew Hall as advised on a number of occasions Booths would be an ideal fit into Hebden Bridge. It's a family owned chain of maybe 10-12 stores, centred on Preston. It has a reputation for sourcing locally wherever possible, and has a superb range of products.

If I could get all of my wishes the supermarket would be on Valley Road with numerous sites which would be a perfect location for a supermarket, plus it must be a greener option if people can walk or used the bus and do shopping on a regular basis locally rather than taking the car and their money out of the valley.

From Lizzie D

Friday, 12 August 2011

Being a Hebden Bridger, I wouldnt assume I know how those in Todmorden feel about the refusal of the plans for a Sainsburys.

The trouble with many Hebden Bridgers is that they seem to want to extend the boundaries to take in Todmorden and adopt it as their own. I for one would have shopped at the new Sainsburys. Sadly, I will have to contine to travel to Halifax or pay for home delivery whilst helping clog up a few more roads.

Those of you that wouldn't do so for whatever reasons or 'support the allotment type principles' you hold, should worry about your own town and keep your noses out of Todmorden's business. As one of my Todmorden friends put it - 'if Sainsburys had only allowed Tod voices to be heard instead of that lot down the valley, we would have got a decent supermarket and got rid of some scrubby wasteland. Instead we get a pipe dream proposal for a marina that is never going to come to be'.

From Ian M

Saturday, 13 August 2011

Interesting to hear your final comment Lizzie. The general consensus in Todmorden actually seems to be that Hebden Bridge residents were all for the Sainsbury's application because it would provide the local supermarket you all want without spoiling the appearance of Hebden!

There were over four hundred letters of objection and over three thousand signatures on the petition against this store. The chairman of the planning meeting said it was clear that the people of Todmorden did not want this store and it was the councils duty to listen to them! Apart from the same faces writing to the paper every week, I do not know one resident of Tod who supported this application.

From Jenny B

Saturday, 13 August 2011

IanM - "Apart from the same faces writing to the paper every week, I do not know one resident of Tod who supported this application".

I know of at least 20 who were in favour, not one of whom wrote to the paper. Just because you don't know of them it doesn't mean they were not there! I don't know how many supporters the scheme had and clearly the majority won the day which is fair enough. But, I am sure that there were rather more than the 20 I know of that supported the plans.

From Graham Barker

Sunday, 14 August 2011

For those who want one, there's already a Sainsbury's on our doorstep in Mytholmroyd - or doesn't that count?

We seem to be at a stage where some people want a supermarket on every street corner. Supermarkets will happily oblige if it gives them more control of the market, but any benefit to shoppers may be short lived. Originally, supermarkets only made economic sense if they were in large, cheap premises close to road networks. That usually meant sites away from town centres, so customers had to travel some distance. That was the trade-off for getting stuff at a discount. But start putting large supermarkets in every small town, and the economics change. You've got more staff to pay and a more complicated distribution network. The whole exercise becomes more expensive, which means higher prices. So if you want more neighbourhood supermarkets, expect to start paying more, not less. for the privilege.


From B Hart

Tuesday, 16 August 2011

Well said Lizzie.

Most people I speak with are in favour of a Sainsbury's. The people who say it will kill the market are small-minded luddites who do not understand the real world.

Turning away a supermarket and over 100 jobs in a town like Todmorden isn't a brave decision, it's economic suicide.

There were around 80 letters of support for Sainsbury's, whereas the petition included the names of people who were objecting to Asda as well as Sainsbury's.

Hardly scientific is it?

From Phil M

Wednesday, 17 August 2011

"small minded luddites" eh? I love this forum, people are sooo polite!!

Yep, markets are indeed 'old fashioned', so do they deserve to be thrown on the scrapheap now we all love our shiny faceless national supermarkets? Or should they be protected, the jobs they provide and the community based feeling they have?

Based on your views I'm sure Tod will get its Sainsburys and/or Asda/Netto in the end, but having 3 or 4 supermarkets in a town the size of Tod will apparently not effect the market that sells fresh meat/ veg/fruit/ cold meats/ pastries etc etc?? I fail to share your optimism I'm afraid.

From Jenny B

Thursday, 18 August 2011

The borough market in Halifax seems to be functioning very well despite supermarkets close by. There are at least 10 butchers, 3 greengrocers, 3 fishmongers, numerous cooked meat stalls all doing a good trade. Todmorden's indoor market on the other hand is small and tired. it still operates a half day closure and is in direct competition with the outdoor market. Personally, I don't see the blame being put at any supermarket for it's demise. People will still buy fresh food from markets. I would much rather have my fruit and veg from the borough market its fresher and cheaper and I dont even think to buy it with my groceries. It is all about choices and I think the jobs that could have come to Todmorden would have created more economic stability for the town. More jobs would surely lead to people having more cash to spend in the town wouldn't it? And as for the Abraham Ormerod centre - maybe it is mentioned because it it such an eyesore that even a bargain booze buster store would be seen as an improvement!

From Em F

Thursday, 18 August 2011

Well said, Phil.

Supermarkets don't help the local economy in the long run, they take money out of the local economy.

Do you want your cash to be taken away from our area into the pockets of fatcat directors and shareholders who care only about profit? Or would you prefer it to go round-and-around from one local trader to another, as it does when you spend it in the market or local shops?

Supermarkets come in, promising jobs - and yes, some local folk get shelf-stacking or till-operating positions, but at what price? When the local butchers, bakers, veg stalls etc go out of business, then people aren't just losing a McJob, they're losing something they care about that gives them much more autonomy and independence than being a tiny ant in the big supermarket machine ever will.

It bemuses me that people think Todmorden can sustain three-and-a-half supermarkets (Morrisons, Sainsbury's, Asda and Lidl) as well as all the local shops and market.

From Ian M

Friday, 19 August 2011

Apologies its obvious that I wasn't clear enough in my previous post.
The Abraham Ormerod centre and the cinema next to it are owned by Wal Mart. They already have two sets of plans approved by Calderdale council to build a supermarket which they have confirmed will trade under the Asda brand.

The independent expert appointed by the council said in his report that building the Sainsburys supermarket in Todmorden would have a detrimental effect on the local economy. I believe the figures quoted are for every 100 new jobs created by a supermarket, 156 existing jobs are lost in the local economy.

Consider this.

Sainsburys open a new store on the outskirts of Todmorden. They aggressively market this store in the local area using discounted products and voucher offers (as they have done in the past) people are enticed by these offers and the provision of free parking. The other three supermarkets in the town respond with their own discount offers. With Billion pound profits, Sainsburys, Asda etc, can afford to continue this tactic for as long as they wish.The local small shops on the other hand, cannot run at a loss for even a short time as their margins are so tight. The result is a supermarket on each entry road to a dead town centre full of boarded up shops.

Finally I cannot believe that even a single resident of a town such as Hebden Bridge, which is so proud of its reputation for being unique with so many unusual shops and no major retailers, can suggest that its nearest neighbour be hung out to dry and left to the mercies of the huge retailers they detest so much. Unless of course self preservation is at the forefront of their reasoning? Perhaps the national press should pick up on this thread and see just how Tolerant and free thinking Hebden residents are, quick to abandon their neighbours to preserve their own uniqueness.
Not in my back yard, but 2 miles down the road so I can drive their and back is OK!

From Jon B

Friday, 19 August 2011

Ultimately, it's down to snobbery. Many people in Hebden Bridge do not want to see cheap goods on sale in or around their town as it affects the little 'green' bubble that they have built around themselves.

Unfortunately not all the residents of Hebden Bridge have the disposal income that many of the do-gooders have. Some of us are paying high rent and high council tax bills, plus high travel costs, because we have to commute to Leeds, Bradford or Manchester to find a job to pay for our meagre 'luxuries' such as milk, bread and utility bills.

I prefer to enjoy the best of both worlds. I buy my meat and veg from the local shops, use the local milkman, use the local bus service, but I wouldn't mind sometimes being able to get my freezer stocked up cheaply, and I know that doing that in the Co-Op means taking out a small mortgage.

I dare to think what uproar would be caused if there was a proposal for a pound-shop in the town!

So yes, it's snobbery, put simply.

From Em F

Saturday, 20 August 2011

Jon B, you can already stock up at Morrisons in Tod, or King's Cross Tesco on the way into Halifax. Soon it looks like there'll be an Asda in Tod too. Plus there are Lidls in Tod and Sowerby. Surely that's enough supermarkets for the area? Why on earth would we need a Sainsbury's too, whether we are snobs or not?

Also... There used to be two 'pound shops' in Hebden. I don't know why they closed down, but I don't remember anyone campaigning against them before they arrived.

Ian, I don't think most Hebden residents - especially the anti-supermarkets-in-Hebden ones - would want to inflict more supermarkets on Todmorden. Mostly I shop locally (in Hebden). I occasionally use Morrisons or Lidl, if I happen to be passing. I definitely won't be using a new Asda. Thanks for supplying the figures about job losses to compliment my rant.

From Lizzie D

Monday, 22 August 2011

But my goodness, I thought Ian M was going to spontaneously combust for a minute! In fighting so hard to justify 'your views' Ian, your criticism of Hebden Bridgers as being NIMBYs comes across as rather bitter.

Just as you can't hope to represent the views of all of the people in Todmorden, this forum and its members can't hope to do that for Hebden. There are many people who do like the town of little shops, but there are also many who would prefer one decent supermarket to make our pounds go further.

When you are faced with paying almost 50p more for a loaf of bread you can become envious of you Todmordonians and your Lidl and Morrisons. I think we all need to accept that it is OK for people to not agree with us, that we are not 'selling our neighbours down the river' by expressing support for a decent store, but to accept that there has always been, and always will be a measure of support for a decent supermarket in the area.

Yes, I do mean on the old Browns site on the edge of our boundary. Maybe if Sainsburys built us Hebden NIMBYs a store there then Hebdenites wouldn't need to encroach on yours.

Now I am not a statistician nor an economics graduate but what is so wrong with having a choice? if all those who support the local businesses continue to do so, why would they fold? I for example, would simply change my own weekly supermarket shop from Halifax or the home delivery services, to a Hebden Bridge supermarket.

I wouldnt spend any less in the town because of that. And despite the displaced workforce argument, I can't see how my doing that wouldn't help the local economy. If local people work in local stores doesn't that increase the chances of them spending their income locally?

I find it interesting that those who criticise the folk who would like a bit more choice, and a bit less cost to our weekly shop, also tell them/us rudely to go to Halifax to shop. Who is being a tad nimbyish there then?